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From: June Mullins (junemullins, earthlink dot net)
Date: 2001.10.17 - 15.25 MDT


Now that my nose is almost entirely unclogged, I'm adding my meager 
comments.

Dan Oister wrote:

> Don:  Thanks for the speedy reply.  My comments are below your comments.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Don jessup" <djessup72, yahoo dot com>
> To: <antera, cryptofreak dot org>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 1:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Quick Update
> 
> 
>> Those are some interesting comments.  Here are some of
>> my own.
>> 
>> 
>>  1.  It is hard to work out exactly what they are
>>  offering.  There are lots of words in there but it is
>> 
>>   all a bit nebulous.
>> 
>>    Hopefully, the new arch doc well help in this area.
> 
> We're working on some simple ways to get the point across.  I'll be testing
> some stuff with you guys soon.
> 
>> 
>> 
>>  2. HSM has been around for a long time but has had
>>    comparatively little uptake as people don't really
>> like it.  I think they worry about the wrong tape
>> being available and having to worry about having a
>> tape library just for HSM.  How about offering the
>> option of a secondary disk store that is usually spun
>> down so you get the benefits of not having to back it
>> up and power draw, but subject to the disks spinning
>> up will be instantly available.
>> 
>>       Going to secondary disk works but probably still
>> needs to be backup in some fashion.
> 
> I think the asynchronous transfer will solve this hurdle.  If we provide
> virus checking before replication onto migration level 2, we should catch
> anything ugly before it gets replicated.

I thought one of our big selling points was cheap archival storage - so 
going to secondary disk doesn't
necessarily provide that.  Isn't there some cutoff point at which the 
cost of a tape library is recouped
because relatively little is on disk?

> 
>> 3.      How does the concept of spooling directly to
>> tape work with versioning.  It may be that someone
>> save and re-edits a file many times, in which case you
>> end up with a tape full of different versions.  There
>> needs to be a tape consolidation method.
>> 
>>   I thought we had drop the idea of versioning.
> 
> I think his main concern is having a bunch of stale files still resident in
> the library.  At some point, we'll need to acquire/partner/develop a utility
> that collects the "live" files from the tape volumes (or whatever ML2 is),
> and re-create new, fresh, high storage efficiency volumes.

I agree that we need some kind of consolidation software.  Hopefully, 
there's something out there that
already does that.

> 
>> 4. In the corporate environment directory services are
>> becoming increasingly relevant, with both NDS and now
>> Active Directory.  Most storage centric manufacturers
>> neglect the requirement for any devices to fit in with
>> the directory structure.
>> 
>>    This is good knowledge and something that probably
>> needs to be researched. Does EA or Samba support
>>  Active Directory.   What is NDS?
> 
> HP is coming out with Linux resident ADS support.  Its about 6 - 8 weeks
> away, and will be open source.  So Antera, and every NAS vendor will have a
> suitable file services permission structure for these corporate
> environments.
> 
>> 5.  WORM in the legal environment utilises a disk
>> technology that cannot be rewritten no matter what you
>> do to it.  That is why it stands up in court.  This is
>> clearly changeable with a switch so the legal bit is
>> of no use.  However it could be useful in non legal
>> environments.
>> 
>>  I assuming there is some kind of miscommunication
>> here.    I'm assuming the bit would send the doc to a
>> permanent medium.  So changing the bit would only
>> affect further updates.
> 
> 
> Don't know.  I think he's concerned about the "letter of the law" on
> re-write-ability requirements for legal markets.  No big deal as of yet.  To
> your point, one of the recipients of legal data on the back end could be
> CD-R - which can't be updated or appended.
> 
>> 6.  They mention multiple 200Mb/s streams.  Clearly as
>> with Tricord this bandwidth capability is crucial.
>> 
>>       This is cleary dependent on the hardware.
> 
> Yup.  You're right.
> 
>> 7.  One thing that doesn't seem to exist in the
>> market is a packaged backup solution.  NAS appliances
>> assume that all  the data is going to reside on the
>> appliance.  This cannot always be the case, or may not
>> always be desirable.  For example, there are always
>> arguments about the merits of  putting databases or
>> installable file systems, such as Exchange, on NAS.
>> With products like Bakbones Netvault there are newish
>> backup software products that cover a wide range of
>> platforms and offer a wide range of library support
>> with optional disk staging.  The  problem is that you
>> cannot disk stage to a network drive, so you end up
>> having to put in a dedicatedish  backup server.  How
>> about a packaged device that has all the connectivity
>> they are talking about, including the library support,
>> but with a decent backup application running on the
>> box so you have local disk staging, directly attached
>> tape library and if they can do snap shotting of the
>> arget data to backup it could be really interesting.
>> 
>>  What does he mean by disk stage to a network drive?
> 
> 
> He means using disk as a collection/consolidation point for network backups.
> We do a nice job of meeting his requirements on this one, and it may be
> worth further exploration to make sure we hit the bull's eye.
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --- Dan Oister <dan.oister, home dot com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Team,
>>> 
>>> I'm still a road warrior, but continue to get
>>> validation at every presentation I go to.
>>> 
>>> I had some interesting feedback from a gentleman who
>>> runs a large reseller in England that I'd like to
>>> share.  He had seen an early version of a
>>> presentation that left him questioning exactly what
>>> we're doing, but his comments on a backup appliance
>>> are worth reading.
>>> 
>>> I also met with a VC consultant yesterday and got
>>> some good feedback and direction from him.
>>> 
>>> ...hope all's well with everyone.  Don't hesitate to
>>> call or write!!
>>> 
>>> Dan O
>>> 
>>> 303-456-0103 (ofc.  forwards to cell phone)
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  > -----Original Message-----
>>> 
>>>       > From: Richard Pain
>>> [mailto:richard.pain, solutioncentre dot co.uk]
>>> 
>>>       > Sent: 03 October 2001 09:45
>>> 
>>>       > To: 'bgriffiths, nas dot uk.com'
>>> 
>>>       > Subject: RE: Returned mail: see transcript
>>> for details
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > Barry
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > It is hard to work out exactly what they are
>>> offering.  There are lots of
>>> 
>>>       > words in there but it is all a bit nebulous.
>>>  A few random things that
>>> 
>>>       > spring to mind:
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > HSM has been around for a long time but has
>>> had comparatively little
>>> 
>>>       uptake
>>> 
>>>       > as people don't really like it.  I think
>>> they worry about the wrong tape
>>> 
>>>       > being available and having to worry about
>>> having a tape library just for
>>> 
>>>       > HSM.  How about offering the option of a
>>> secondary disk store that is
>>> 
>>>       > usually spun down so you get the benefits of
>>> not having to back it up and
>>> 
>>>       no
>>> 
>>>       > power draw, but subject to the disks
>>> spinning up will be instantly
>>> 
>>>       > available.
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > How does the concept of spooling directly to
>>> tape work with versioning.
>>> 
>>>       It
>>> 
>>>       > may be that someone save and re-edits a file
>>> many times, in which case you
>>> 
>>>       > end up with a tape full of different
>>> versions.  There needs to be a tape
>>> 
>>>       > consolidation method.
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > In the corporate environment directory
>>> services are becoming increasingly
>>> 
>>>       > relevant, with both NDS and now Active
>>> Directory.  Most storage centric
>>> 
>>>       > manufacturers neglect the requirement for
>>> any devices to fit in with the
>>> 
>>>       > directory structure.
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > WORM in the legal environment utilises a
>>> disk technology that cannot be
>>> 
>>>       > rewritten no matter what you do to it.  That
>>> is why it stands up in court.
>>> 
>>>       > This is clearly changeable with a switch so
>>> the legal bit is of no use.
>>> 
>>>       > However it could be useful in non legal
>>> environments.
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > They mention multiple 200Mb/s streams.
>>> Clearly as with Tricord this
>>> 
>>>       > bandwidth capability is crucial.
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > One thing that doesn't seem to exist in the
>>> market is a packaged backup
>>> 
>>>       > solution.  NAS appliances assume that all
>>> the data is going to reside on
>>> 
>>>       the
>>> 
>>>       > appliance.  This cannot always be the case,
>>> or may not always be
>>> 
>>>       desirable.
>>> 
>>>       > For example, there are always arguments
>>> about the merits of  putting
>>> 
>>>       > databases or installable file systems, such
>>> as Exchange, on NAS.  With
>>> 
>>>       > products like Bakbones Netvault there are
>>> newish backup software products
>>> 
>>>       > that cover a wide range of platforms and
>>> offer a wide range of library
>>> 
>>>       > support with optional disk staging.  The
>>> problem is that you cannot disk
>>> 
>>>       > stage to a network drive, so you end up
>>> having to put in a dedicatedish
>>> 
>>>       > backup server.  How about a packaged device
>>> that has all the connectivity
>>> 
>>>       > they are talking about, including the
>>> library support, but with a decent
>>> 
>>>       > backup application running on the box so you
>>> have local disk staging,
>>> 
>>>       > directly attached tape library and if they
>>> can do snap shotting of the
>>> 
>>>       > target data to backup it could be really
>>> interesting.
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > I'm sure there are lots of things I have
>>> missed, but I don't fully
>>> 
>>>       > understand from what I have read exactly
>>> what they are doing.
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > Best regards
>>> 
>>>       > Richard
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > ---------SEE us at Storage Expo 2001 STAND
>>> 426 (call for details)---------
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > <http://www.solutioncentre.co.uk/>
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>>>       > Solution Centre Ltd. Vickers House,
>>> Priestley Road, Basingstoke, RG24 9NP
>>> 
>>>       >
>>> 
>> === message truncated ===
>> 
>> 
>> __________________________________________________
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>> http://personals.yahoo.com
>> --
>> This is the antera mailing list.  To unsubscribe, email
>> majordomo, cryptofreak dot org with message body `unsubscribe antera'.
>> Or, for more information, visit http://www.cryptofreak.org/.
>> 
> 
> --
> This is the antera mailing list.  To unsubscribe, email
> majordomo, cryptofreak dot org with message body `unsubscribe antera'.
> Or, for more information, visit http://www.cryptofreak.org/.
> 
> 



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This archive was generated by hypermail 2b30 : 2001.10.18 - 03.00 MDT